[Isomorphic]

skitchin if you have a patch for WindowBuilder you need to submit it to Google - we do not host the codebase nor do we have special access to it. So your frustration is completely misplaced (again).

The purpose of sales is not to help a struggling product - grab a book on marketing to learn about this - and the reality is that our products are thriving, the team is growing rapidly, and major new features and extensions are coming out at a rate faster than ever before. We are most certainly the technology to bet on if you care about longevity.

However with your false accusations and rudeness here, especially bad since you received some free assistance from Support while using our free product, we certainly would not try to dissuade you from picking another technology. Best of luck.

[skitchin]

skitchin if you have a patch for WindowBuilder you need to submit it to Google - we do not host the codebase nor do we have special access to it. So your frustration is completely misplaced (again).

It's not my responsibility to maintain updates to GWT Designer repository for Isomorphic. It's the responsibility of SmartGWT team to maintain and test GWTD repository for quality assurances. Let me quote this again from Eric Clayberg (Google developer)...

"That will depend on the SmartGWT developers (or any community members that want to use it). We (Google) have no plans to provide support for SmartGWT 3.0 on our end. Support for SmartGWT 3.0 is a big project, and now that GWT Designer is open source along with the rest of GPE, this is a project more appropriate for the SmartGWT team to undertake (and I encourage you to suggest to them that they do this). In fact, our position going forward is that 3rd party component providers should provide GWTD support on their end as they are in the best position to do so."

His statement is pretty clear. The code base is open to the public and your team can get access to maintain updates to GWT Designer repository. So why is Isomorphic not providing support for GWT Designer?

It's great that your team is growing, more features are coming but SmartGWT 3.0 or future versions are still dead in the water with no support for GWT Designer.

I apologise for being rude and frankly I find this irritating or frustrating after spending months working on this project with SmartGWTEE only to find that Isomorphic's position on supporting GWT Designer is unclear. Again, I want to thank you for your help in the past but I cannot proceed further until Isomorphic's position is clear.

[Isomorphic]

skitchin, we did not create GWT Designer or the support for SmartGWT within it. Therefore we cannot possibly have "abandoned" it. We bear no responsibility for supporting it because we did not create it. We bear no blame for it being abandoned because we did not create it.

Let's hope that much is clear.

Now, when we saw it had been abandoned by Google, we considered whether we wanted to hire staff to pick up and maintain this large, thirdy-party codebase we didn't create. We decided not to, because we think GWT Designer is less productive than what we have already *and* we think it's the wrong direction for our products for the future.

We will continue to rapidly develop and vigorously support our products in the direction that we have been. If you don't like that direction, rather than being rude and abusive and blaming the wrong party, by all means, find a technology more to your liking.

[skitchin]

Now, when we saw it had been abandoned by Google, we considered whether we wanted to hire staff to pick up and maintain this large, thirdy-party codebase we didn't create. We decided not to, because we think GWT Designer is less productive than what we have already *and* we think it's the wrong direction for our products for the future.

Are you saying that Isomorphic is working on developing a visual designer plug-in for Eclipse or IntelliJ?

[Isomorphic]

Not in the way you're probably thinking - we do not plan a drag and drop visual design tool that runs *exclusively* within Eclipse.

The big picture is a web-centric development process in which the right tools are used by the right people at the right times. Eclipse is the wrong tool for early mockups, the wrong tool for a person doing visual design, and the wrong tool for a product manager (or executive).

It's the right tool for a Java developer writing and debugging Java code - code that will generally attach to and manipulate screen designs built in a visual tool, and, as is always the case, directly create the parts of the UI that are too data-driven to be captured in a static definition.

Take a look at our Balsamiq Import support and our new docs on Component XML to get a clearer idea of where we're moving.

[skitchin]

Thank you and it's more clearer now. You are correct that SmartGWT is not suited for my projects since I use Eclipse for Java projects. If your company decides to offer a plug-in for Eclipse or IntelliJ in the future then I may reconsider using SmartGWT since it's a great tool to use with Java.

Thank you for taking your time to answer my questions.

[Isomorphic]

That's a completely absurd summary - almost everyone uses Eclipse or another IDE with SmartGWT, including everyone chiming in here telling you that it's more effective to use data binding than to use GWT Designer.

If you're going to use another technology, great. But kindly exit without dropping any more bombshells that we need to correct for the sake of other users - that's a huge waste of time for us.

[shishirmane]

I went through many forums/people talking about the same issue. I agree that Visual Builder and now the Balsamiq (upcoming) support for UI development is definitely useful. But the important differentiator w.r.t. WindowBuilder is that WindowBuilder is free and under EPL. An important aspect that attracts many developers to use it. I do not have the statistics to compare the usage, but I can bet that WindowBuilder would win.

WindowBuilder is a generous contribution made by google for the open source community. So eventhough Isomorphic is making commercial grade UI development softwares/libraries, the support by Isomorphic for WindowBuilder will definitely prove to be an intangible benefit (for Isomorphic) in a longer run.

[Uncle Scotty]

windowbuilder "work around"

I also use WindowBuilder for designing many of my UI's and what I do is have two separate GWT projects: the main client application which has the SmartGWT 3 jars and another just for forms and layouts with the SmartGWT 2.4 jars. This way I can still use WindowBuilder for the UI design. The 3.0 project inherits the 2.4 project.

I don't think this is the best solution, but it works for now.

I like many things about SmartClient, but I think it's arrogant how their proprietary data binding and enterprise edition are always pushed. They're not an option for me, and not for a lot of other people.

Ideally we could put together a group to improve WindowBuilder for SmartGWT support. Also, I'd love to see Sanjiv create a new GWT library with many of the features of SmartGWT written in pure Java and completely free of SmartClient, but that's another story. If I had the time I'd do it myself, but the problem is always time.

[airtech]

Wow...

I was looking for GWT designer support - I noticed that GXT is "supposed" to have it sometime in the future. I came over here to see if SmartGWT would include it, and I am just floored by Isomorphic and the rudeness/arrogance towards customers (potential or paying).

Could simply say something along the lines of "At this time, we have no plans to support Google's product - GWT Designer. If this stance changes, we will be happy to let you know."

Did you notice how Google's guy replied? Felt like the complete opposite of Isomorphic - not belittling, but informative.

Instead I see stuff like the following:
"We will continue to rapidly develop and vigorously support our products in the direction that we have been. If you don't like that direction, rather than being rude and abusive and blaming the wrong party, by all means, find a technology more to your liking."

Basically, you don't like the path we've chosen for you, then don't let the door hit ya on the way out. Not apologetic or customer service like - but just blatantly - we know best, you're wrong, don't argue with us (but we'll continue arguing with you?). Just wow...

I just signed up for a trial, and I'll be moving along - I have to buy a package to assist in development for a project but it's not going to be here after simply reading the replies from Isomorphic. Again, just wow...

[Isomorphic]

Actually, we're giving you a more accurate picture of the roadmap as a gesture of respect.

We *could* tell you just "there are no current plans", but that wouldn't be an accurate picture - the reality, as we've shared, is that we are invested in a different direction, which is in *conflict* with trying to maintain someone else's product.

So, if GWT Designer is what you absolutely must have, no other tool will do, you aren't open to other approaches, and you aren't prepared to maintain GWT Designer yourself, you probably should find another framework.

We prefer to tell you so clearly rather than string you along, creating false hope, trying to get you invested enough in our platform that you can't leave. Many other companies use such tactics, we prefer to be forthright.

So the next time you hear a generic feel-good message like "we value your opinion", think about whether you're actually being respected, or whether it's a snow job, something that actually makes your decision harder.

[Olivercomputing]

Instead I see stuff like the following:
"We will continue to rapidly develop and vigorously support our products in the direction that we have been. If you don't like that direction, rather than being rude and abusive and blaming the wrong party, by all means, find a technology more to your liking."

Anyone who's read even a moderate number of Isomorphic replies to posts on their forums, as well as generally around the net by Charles Kendrick, will have to laugh at the above psychological projection in the above "rude and abusive."